Concerning co-champions
Just spoke with Bill Bruno..Shore Conference president...
In the case of CBA and CN tying for first place in Class A North, the SC does NOT recognize them as co-champs. One team sweeping the other (CBA swept in this case) is a moot point.
CBA is A North non-public champion and CN is public champion. They WILL be considered co-champs only for seeding purposes in the SCT so that both begin with home games.
Actually..had one or the other finished in first place and the other in second, their championships would remain the same.
According to SC rules you must finish first or second to be considered an official champion in one category or the other.
Lovely rule isn't it??
Now if two public schools tie for first or two parochial schools tie for first then they ARE co-champions.
In the case of CBA and CN tying for first place in Class A North, the SC does NOT recognize them as co-champs. One team sweeping the other (CBA swept in this case) is a moot point.
CBA is A North non-public champion and CN is public champion. They WILL be considered co-champs only for seeding purposes in the SCT so that both begin with home games.
Actually..had one or the other finished in first place and the other in second, their championships would remain the same.
According to SC rules you must finish first or second to be considered an official champion in one category or the other.
Lovely rule isn't it??
Now if two public schools tie for first or two parochial schools tie for first then they ARE co-champions.
posted by Tony Graham at 5:52 PM
21 Comments:
If all things were equal you would not need the rule. Is it fair that public schools have to compete using players within their district while the parochial schools can go anywhere? It is not a coincidence that CBA never has a down year and that a public school has not won a Shore Conference girls' b-ball title in a generation. The differences are greater in girls' sports but the fact is that teams are not compting by the same rules.
I understand the advantages parochial schools have. But to me - personally - it's bunk.
You finish fist you win a championship. Finish second, you don't.
Ask the kids over the years _ have. They know it's an artificial set up. All it does is make some makes some parents and coaches feel good.
Hey, let's have an "almost public or non-public school champion" for third place? Now even more parents and coaches will feel better.
Also - in my opinion - Colts Neck and CBA are co-champions in A North. Not public, non public, almost public, sort of public, maybe non-public, etc., etc.
I frankly think - in this case - it's more prestigious than the public, non-public nonsense. And yes - a standout accomplishment for CN..only the second team in eight years to tie CBA for first place in the division.
And for CBA - excellent job of coming back to reach the top after those early set backs.
Just my opinion folks. That's why they pay me.
Tony you and the staff have done a great job over the years covering HS sports at the shore BUT with that being said your way off base with the "Private" vs "Public" view. How can you consider a school that can draw from Ocean, Monmouth, Mercer and Middlesex county an equal with lets say RFH, Red Bank Reg, Shore Reg, Ocean Twp or Neptune Twp. in ANY sport. the fact that Shore has dominated in the girls field Hockey or Neptune had dominated in boys Basketball or RFH in girls BB or Ocean in Baseball does not diminish the fact that it is day in and day out IMPOSSIBLE for the public school kids to compete with the "Private Schools" over all in NJ. Whats your thought on combining this years TRE, TRS and TRN into one team for baseball..please even you would be screaming UNFAIR in the long run.
How about combining all of the Freehold school systems for ANY sport..yup you would HAVE to say it is unfair..but thats what the CBA's, RBC's, SJV's , Seton Hall Prep's, St Anthony's ect...do year in and year out..let them play in their own division and play like no tomorrow..I'll pay to watch all the games but public vs public is the ONLY fair way
\ Thanks
I understand all the points.
I just don't like it.
Now in Class A Central baseball...if SJ Vianney finishes second to Rumson (what, a public school finishing first!) they still win the Non-Public A title ..by doing what?? -- beating out one team - RBC. Yipee. Bet the Lancer players would just be ecstatic.
I can't speak for them though..I do remember talking to Ryan Kalish (former RBC star now in the Boston chain) prior to last year and he basically told me just winning the Non-Public title would be meaningless....
Can CBA draw from a wider range because it is a Parochial school? Of course it can. But it serves as no advantage when you have to pay $7,000 a year to go to school there or go to your district public school for free. I have never understood the whole Public vs. Private debate, especially when it comes to CBA. The only way it makes sense is if CBA recruits players from all over the state and gives kids scholarships to go to school so that they don't have to pay. In that case, it would be unfair, but the fact of the matter is that all of these kids CHOOSE to go to CBA and PAY to go to CBA. No one is recruited to go there, and no one is given a free ride. So again, how is charging kids $7,000 a year to come to a good school an advantage when they can go to their district public school for free. The reason kids go to CBA, because its one of the top academic schools in the area and one of the top athletic schools in the area. They have a reputation and history that some kids want to be a part of. Their should be no Public or Private debate and they should just go back to one champion.
To CBA alum - well said!
Just a follow up to CBA Alum - $7,000 is a bargain. Try $10,000 and some of us who send our sons their have chosen to make the necessary sacrifices. Not all the boys who go to CBA are necessarily there for the Athletics.
To Anonymous, you are absolutely right, not everyone goes there for athletics. I tried to mention that as well in my post by stating that CBA is always regarded as one of the top academic schools in the area and state as well as one of the top athletic schools around NJ. You are correct. And I am not sure what the tuition is per year now, but I would not be surprised if it is near $10,000. Regardless, the private vs. public debate makes no sense for CBA for my reasons stated above. I can't speak for the other private schools in the Shore, but I am pretty sure they don't give out Athletic Scholarships or recruit players (but I could be wrong).
just about every city in the country has a public school and a non public league, we even do that here in our own state for state playoffs.
lets just create a non public school division in the shore conf
cba,rbc,sjv,mater dei,mondon, st rose they can play for their own division championship and still get a chance to play in the SCT and other public school teams in non division match ups.
Unfortunately, we are not a city, but a suburb with 7 private schools with tremendous size differences (CBA vs MD?). In both of our neighbors, NY and PA, there is not a separate state championship for publics and privates. I, for one, have confidence in the ability of many public schools to compete with private schools. We see it often down here at the shore.
I agree. We do not have the size of a "city" such as New York or Philadelphia. And honestly, put yourself in the situation of a player. Lets say you are in A-North, and win all of your games except for your 2 meetings with CBA. Then, at the end of the year, you are awarded the Public A-North Divisional Championship, but you know you lost two games to the first place team. Does that Championship really mean anything? I mean, in this case, CBA wins the title by default every year because they are the only private team in A-North. It just doesn't make sense. Let their be one champion.
It would be interesting to hear from some players or even former players on this..on either side of the coin.
BUT..I will NOT run any comments from anons...the player (s) would have to identify themselves.."I am Joe Smith from Brick High School..and here are my thoughts." and also make their statments in a professional manner
..I am going to take it at face value that there are NO false IDs sprinkled in here...I will accept players comments on this for only a short period of time and will reject any - even if names are listed - I feel may be false or unprofessional in their approach..
Players (or anyone for that matter) may also e-mail me at tonygsports@aol.com....
I just think it might be revealing to hear from players or former players themselves....
Doesn't matter how you feel about it..all thoughts are welcome..
We are beating a dead horse here. The rules are established upfront and you get what you get. You can make arguments both ways as to who the better team is. The championship is a season championship. During the season, CBA lost to teams with a combined conference record of 21 and 18 (according to shoreconference website). The combined conference win/loss record of the teams CN lost to is 30 and 12. One could argue that is an appropriate tiebreaker, but the shore conference does not. If both schools were public, they would be co-champions and they would both deserve it. That is the rule that was established to eliminate arguments about tiebreakers. As it stands, CBA is the season non-public champion. CN is the season public champion. They both deserve it.
99% of all tiebreakers are determined by head to head results. In this case I believe CBA swept CN, and therefore wins the head to head tie break. The point of the matter is that there should be one champion. If CN swept the season series, then they would be the A-North champion. I agree with Tony on this one "You finish first you win a championship. Finish second, you don't". I am not saying CN is a bad team by any means, they just loss both games to CBA this year. CBA has loss their fair share of games as well, but in the end, it was tie with CN and they won the head to head match-ups. Overall, the Parochial vs. Private debate is really just a matter of handing out more trophies so that the kids (and maybe parents) can feel better about themselves. Yet, I would be interested to hear how current players view it. Do they even care or do they understand that in the back of their mind that they really did come in second? And where was this Private vs. Parochial debate 10 years ago, or 20 years ago - CBA was around then, winning just as much as they do now and I don't remember everyone complaining. RBC, St. Rose, and Mon Don were around. Where were the arguments then? Why all of sudden to we need to make our kids feel better when they come in 2nd?
I think it was first created by some coaches, and then maybe parents chimed in.
It may be more about making those parties feel better about coming in second place than the players themselves.
And how does this make the non-public player feel who comes in second to the public team?
"Wow, we came in second and won a championship."
CN did not "come in second". Were the teams both public, they would be co-champions. This is a season championship...not a two game series. If we are going to use 2 game series as a benchmark...then CBA should be behind Manalapan.
I do not know their exact records, but from reading the article, it was my understanding that CBA and CN tied for first place in A-North. Meaning that had the same in conference record as each other. I am assuming Manalapan was behind both of them in the standings. BUT since CBA swept CN during the season, and it about 99% of the time - head to head tiebreakers are how ties are decided, then CBA would be declared the winner. It doesn't matter if CBA lost both games to the last place team in A-North, if they have the best record, which they do and so does CN, but since they swept CN, they would be the champion. A simple concept really - head to head tiebreaker.
I played baseball at CBA ('78) many years ago, before public and non-public schools merged into a single conference. Regardless of the schedule, all the teams wanted the top ranking in the APP. Ultimately it was the Monmouth College Tournament that decided who was the best team in the Shore; most of the time it was a public school. Incidentally, we beat Seton Hall Prep in '77 for CBA's only state championship, but we finished ranked 7th (I believe) in the shore.
The Shore Conference is that one percent that does not take sweeps into account.
Not that I agree with it, but that's the way it is.
To Will - I covered that game in '77. Remeber all those DPs CBA turned?
Anyway..Shore Conf and NJSIAAs will ultimately decide this year's rankings, too.
The MCIT was - as you know - prior to the SCT. Was a truly majestic event in its day.
Tony...how could I not. That was one of those days when everything went right for us. Those DP's came from all the ground balls that Bill Kurtz threw. I was the cathcer. We knew that SH could hit, so we tried to keep the ball low, worked in/out on the corners, and changed speeds. Bill didn't have much of a curve, but he threw a nice change-up and had very good control. Fortunately, it kept them off balance and gave us a chance to win. BTW, check your story on who scored the winning run.
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